By Snejana Farberov. As one of 29 death investigators for the Clark County Coroner's Officer in Las Vegas, Nevada, Rick Jones is charged with determining the cause of death, which requires examining the victims' remains as well as their homes in search of clues. Like his colleagues, Jones arrives at crimes scenes along with police, checks the body for trauma and carefully photographs everything, from blood spatter to the position of the victim on the floor. Grave task: Forensic assistant Lindsay Hanes cleans the hands of a decedent, prepping to take fingerprints upon its arrival at the Clark County Office of the Coroner in Las Vegas. Helping hand: Coroner investigator Richard Jones removes jewelry from a body, which will be given to the next of kin.
From what I can make out, I'm the only journalist in there and I'm pretty sure the press room was empty. Narrow your search:. Fifty-five elephants starve to death in Zimbabwe in just two months after severe drought Tragic photo taken hours before teenage mother's death shows her cradling the newborn she never got to meet She proceeds to speak quietly and very quickly as she outlines the details of the case. Stanislaus County Deputy Coroner Tom Killian pushes a students pretend dead body into the back of the coroner van. Coroner Dr Andrew Harris is hearing the inquest of Sean Rigga year-old man with mental health problems who died in a cage in the yard of Brixton police station in August Uber driver claims three county lines dealers hired his Pictures of coroner uniform for Pictures of coroner uniform trip around London to deliver drugs Sell images Our Blog.
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The effect of the verdict at common law is Pictures of coroner uniform it Gay wap sites a sufficient basis for prosecution for murder or manslaughter so long as the jury finds evidence supporting prosecution. The Tyvek kept off unirorm decomp fluids but did nothing to keep the stink off the clothes. I don't understand this "myth" that the 45 is the "Holy Grail" of handguns; that if you are not using a 45 acp you are under-gunned. A juror who refuses to attend an inquest may be subject to a fine and a contempt citation. I am asking here, in response to a question I read in the Reload Forum What we're looking at here, folks, Picthres analogous to the parable of the blind men touching an elephant. Forgive me, my eyes are welling up with tears and I might have to continue this thread later. The purpose of this inspection is iniform ascertain from the appearance of the body how Pictures of coroner uniform death was caused. Concealability aside, Adult gag shorts the bolt of an XP in a firefight just doesn't appeal to me. I'll try to keep Picturfs scientific end of things to a minimum, but some of it is necessary to get the gist of it. Sometimes simply breaking a leg of the BG will end the Pictures of coroner uniform sometimes not.
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Stanislaus County Deputy Coroner Tom Killian pushes a students pretend dead body into the back of the coroner van. Also shows main entrance on sign. The Movie. A body was subsequently recovered and passed to the Sussex Coroner: Credit. Alan Fraser L. Arnold Klein after he made a surprise Birmingham Coroner's Court. Los Angeles county firefighters along with LA coroner work on retrieving a body that was found inside a car buried in mud in Palmdale Tuesday after last week's severe flooding.
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Fire authorities attempted to dig out the vehicle that was 6 feet deep in the dirt to get the driver. It took city workers and tow truck crews 3. Authorities believe the year-old died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Pepys brand to coincide with the launch of the M. Coroner's Court building, Horseferry Road, Westminster, London HM Coroners Court, Woking, Surrey, where inquests are held, a legal inquiry into the medical cause and circumstances of a sudden or unexplained death Dec 25, - Sylmar, California, USA - LA coroner removes the body of a man suspected of opening fire at a Christmas Eve party in a Covina home that subsequently caught fire, leaving at least three dead, was found Thursday in Sylmar.
Suicide inquests, Bridgend.
Maybe, then, the increase in velocity of the. I've seen a guy killed by a. Share Fav. I could show you x-rays of fragmented 9mm bullets beneath the skin, but that isn't allowed. The third group is the assailant who is determined to kill you regardless of the consequences.
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Or the commonly carried. I don't have velocity information for other bullets handy, but it would seem that to a CCW wheelgunner it would behoove one to compare their chosen caliber offerings for velocity from a barrel length as close as possible to what they carry, compared with the weight of the bullet, and look for the best combination of high velocity viz high bullet weight.
I'm not sure what weight to give to bullet shape in this analysis, versus velocity and weight. Steven Camp has done some of this and I'll have to re-read his and your postings.
I highly recommend reading them. Hopefully they'll be updated soon. I don't know why they used a vented barrel for some of the tests. Ah, Grasshopper, the answer is simple. Master just does not know! Again, we seldom ever see the. And yes, Grasshopper, your insight on carrying what you practice with is well-taken. There are innumerable combinations of barrel length, vented vs. The trick is finding what works, which is easier said than done. Despite its relatively small bullet weight, it is known in defensive circles as a man-stopper.
Yes, it's got a higher velocity than many other handgun calibers but not THAT much greater. Handgun bullets are just not going to come close to reaching the fps needed for the maximum expansion of the temporary cavity, but ANY increase in velocity will increase kinetic energy.
Maybe, then, the increase in velocity of the. I just don't know. I guess the bottom line here, at least from what I've seen on the autopsy table, is that it's a tradeoff of bullet weight for increased velocity.
If I had some way of making the fps in a handgun to ensure a huge temporary cavity, sure, I'd opt for it even at the expense of a lighter bullet. But we don't, and although increased velocity can be gained by reducing bullet size, it often comes at the expense of penetration for a modest gain in velocity temporary cavity size. All too often I see bullets stop short of reaching vital organs because they shed weight before arriving there.
I'll stay with heavy even to the extent of sacrificing some velocity. Suffice it to say, I would never trust either caliber to save my life regardless of what round I carried in it. Why the government in its infinite wisdom ever switched from a proven man-stopper like the. Remember, this isn't scientific but is based solely on observation. The bullet just keeps chunking merrily along busting up whatever it hits. Gold Dot has always seemed to expand well, and I've seen several instances of cars being brought into the garage that have been shot full of Gold Dots during shootouts.
The Gold Dot rounds have done a marvelous job of penetrating doors and windshields before venting the BG sniff. It's the round I carry in my own weapon. Same with the. Although we see it less than the. Of all the rounds I've seen that are 1-shot kills, it's the. It's also the caliber I carry.
Ah, the. I've got 3 of these suckers and love 'em all. About the only time we see them in the morgue is during a suicide and, trust me, there's no such thing as an "attempted suicide" with a. Regardless of bullet weight or design, they plow through bone and tissue with ease. As I mentioned in an earlier post, however, I did see a grain hollowpoint touched off between the running lights flatten on the inside of the skull on the back of the head and not exit.
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. They're hard to conceal and harder still to shoot effectively. While we're on the topic of Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, allow me to vent one of my pet peeves, if you will.
That pet peeve is having a cavalier attitude toward qualifying. A few weeks ago I was at the range when a guy took the lane next to me and put up a foot silhouette target. After some period of time he leaned over into my lane and asked, "How do I get this thing downrange? He ran the target down to 10 yards and began blazing away with his Beretta The holes appeared all over the paper, and the closest thing I could find to a group was whatever was defined by the margins of the paper.
Feeling comfortable that he was now in the ballpark, Bubba ran the target to 25 yards and began blazing away again. Half a box of ammo later he still hadn't poked a hole in the paper, much less the silhouette. He then left, purchased another box of ammo at the front counter, returned, and began firing away.
About 20 or so shots later I began to see a few holes near the shirt cuff of the silhouette, and he never got closer to the x-ring than a foot or so. He packed up his gear and on his way out said to me, "I've got to qualify tomorrow and I can't shoot for doodly squat. Once he was gone I retrieved his target and counted 7 holes in the silhouette and 45 on the paper but not on the silhouette.
I have no idea what his occupation is. Maybe it's a policeman, maybe a security guard, but it's something that definitely requires him to carry a weapon frequently enough that he's required to qualify with it at least once a year. And if he's required to carry it it seems to me like he should take the time to become proficient with it. But Bubba's attitude toward qualifying was that it was something he had to do, not something he needed to learn to do.
In retrospect, I guess I should have taken him aside and said "Look, quit treating this like it's a test you have to pass in order to keep your job!
Think of it as a skill that might keep you or me alive someday. Think of it as a skill that might keep your wife from becoming a widow or your kid from growing up without a father. Folks, we can continue this thread until the next millennium and beat around calibers, bullet construction, velocity, muzzle flash, and a zillion other variables.
Sooner or later you'll have to make up your mind on what you think works and carry it. When the dust settles and we've made up our minds on what we'll carry, I think we'd see that there won't be a consensus of opinion.
The one thing I hope we'd agree on, however, is that the best man-stopper in the world is absolutely useless in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it effectively. Make every trip to the range count. Learn to shoot effectively; learn to call your shots. Learn how fast and how effectively you can place that second and subsequent shots.
For those of you with non-adjustable sights, learn which ammo places your shots closest to the x-ring. Learn proper trigger control and proper sight pictures. Learn how to reload quickly and effectively. As for the guy next to me who had to qualify the following day, I sincerely hope he failed and now has a desk job somewhere.
The very job of a cop often places them in situations in which this skill, one that he considered a mere job requirement, could save their lives or those of someone else. Yes, this was a cop or someone who was required to carry a weapon, but it applies to all of us, civilian and law enforcement alike.
Remember, that visits to the range are generally no-stress situations. Take your trips to the range seriously. Have fun, but take them seriously. Maybe it's my law enforcement background or maybe it's having worked in the morgue for a number of years, but killing someone who is coming at me with intent to do me in is precisely what I want to do. For those who don't, that's fine, and I have no problem with it.
We all make our own decisions and live or die with them. I was a witness at an execution by lethal injection last year and I have to say it didn't bother me a bit; I also think that killing someone who is intent on doing me bodily harm would have a similar effect.
Having seen innumerable innocent civilians killed by BGs, I'll have to admit that an imperceptible smile crosses my face every time I see a BG supine on an autopsy table. I suspect the vast majority of law enforcement personnel feel similarly. Still, it's a caliber we see quite frequently, and it might be good to know what damage it imparts. Discussing it is in no way an endorsement of it. The reason it's such a poor choice of a defensive weapon by now should be obvious.
If you think grains of 9mm has little stopping power, try 40 grains of. It has been my experience that hollowpoint. Also, when fired from handguns both hollowpoints and solids are often recovered relatively intact and undeformed.
The ubiquitous. When fired from a rifle, often a "lead snowstorm" is created and shows up on the x-rays where the bullet fragments shortly after entering the skull. With body shots, either in defensive situations or suicides, multiple shots are usually required unless someone gets inordinately lucky and plants the bullet firmly in a vital organ.
As nvbirdman so rightly said, it has a well-deserved reputation as a very poor choice of defensive weapons. Along these same lines, let me give a thought or two on pellet guns and bb guns. I can remember a number of deaths caused by these two weapons, one quite recently. In every case I can remember, the death was caused by a pellet or bb to the eye.
The bone in the back of the eye is extremely thin and little is required to push a pellet or bb through it. Even worse, in the back of the orbit there's a small area where there's no bone at all and there's a direct path to the brain. For those of you with kids, be aware of this and, as always, preach safety to them. I hope the previous post was taken in the spirit in which it was intended. For many, there seems to be a feeling of comfort imparted by carrying a defensive weapon regardless of how incompetent they are in using it.
Unfortunately, these folks seem to have a habit of seeking out an autopsy table. DeadMeat, I have a question for you that has come up in some discussions. The idea has been kicked around of carrying a flare gun. And since it is not recognized by the law as a "firearm", but as a signaling device it relieves the stress of legal problems. Have you ever seen a victim of or read a report medical or morgue of a person shot with a 12ga.
There was a pretty well known case among cruising sailors in the Bahamas. It made several of the magazines at the time back in the late '80s. A man and his wife in a remote anchorage where attacked by a group of three local problems. They announced what they were going to do to his wife after they killed him with their machetes.
He responded to the first guy over the rail with a 25mm white phosphorus round to his face at a range of about three feet. Perp ended back in his own boat doing alot of screaming. White phosphorus can't be extinguished once it starts. His fleeing buddies dumped him on the beach where he expired after screaming for about 30 minutes. The couple had their property seized and where deported if I remember correctly.
No, I've never seen someone hit by a flare gun so I'm out of my element here. I did have a guy hit in the chest by a 'tater fired out of a potato gun, though. Seems he and his buddies were having an alcohol-fueled softball game when one of the guys produced a potato gun and bet the batter he couldn't hit a 'tater fired from it.
Believe me, if you've ever seen how fast a spud comes out of one of these things you wouldn't have taken that bet! Anyway, batter up! Our batter was ready to do his best imitation of Babe Ruth, but, unfortunately the pitcher's aim was a bit inside and hit our batter squarely in the chest with one of Idaho's finest. It broke about half the ribs on the left side and severed a few major blood vessels around the heart.
Needless to say, he didn't get the walk to first. When I started this thread a couple weeks ago my intent was just to relay a CCW story I had been involved in. Since then it has morphed into a lengthy discussion on calibers, bullets, velocity, wound characteristics, and other things. Also, judging from the number of views, it seems to have generated a fair amount of interest, due, I think, to a unique perspective of an ex-policeman and avid shooter working in a morgue.
Please understand that I don't profess to be an expert in ballistics since I've had no formal training although I have been hunting and shooting for the better part of 50 years now. That said, I'm wondering where else to take this thread, if anywhere. If you guys want to let this wither on the vine here it's ok with me.
If there are any other topics along these lines that might be of interest, we can continue it if you like. You're right, it is a good question, but one I won't be able to answer, unfortunately. No, I've never seen a Glazer or MagSafe come through the morgue. Let me ask around a bit and see what I can find out. I got called out to south Georgia last night and will be gone through at least Wednesday and probably longer so it might be a few days before I can get back with you.
I've already got questions on knives trust me, leave 'em at home if you're expecting a gunfight although some folks still give them a try , assault weapons, and the. Jeez, what a week! Just got back last night from south Georgia looking for a guy who was killed six years ago. I thought I'd be there for maybe three days but wound up spending six I'll be heading back next Tuesday to implement Plan B for the search. I don't think it was that hot last year when I was in Thailand identifying the tsunami dead!
For the life of me I can't recall the details of shot placement or specific damage. I see so many gunshots at the morgue that I usually can't recall the specifics of individual cases except to form an opinion over time of what bullets and what calibers work and don't work. And, believe me, the. With any bullet style, with any powder charge. Carry it if you have it. Oh, I do remember one from long ago that's interesting. I never got the whole story on it, but it seems a BG somehow got hold of some.
Talk about a hollowpoint! I don't know what velocity it was loaded at but from all indications it was really cooking and probably loaded the lands and grooves with lead as it traversed the barrel.
Fortunately, he smoked the other BG sniff with one shot in the chest and didn't blow up the gun with a subsequent shot. When we dug it out at autopsy it was about the size of a quarter and was about as thick. Let's see if I can get to a few other unanswered questions. First, knife fights vs. If given the choice, take the gun, always the gun. Fortunately, the Tueller Rule is hopefully now taught in virtually every law enforcement academy and distances between the cop and the BG that were widely perceived to be safe at one time are now considered well within the danger zone.
By the way, there's a really good re-evaluation of the Tueller Rule at www. It's well worth reading and serves to emphasize that a knife-wielding BG can be a formidable adversary and may well justify lengthening the foot rule.
Reading the article can explain it better than I can. Oh, and, no, we don't have the plastic injection method to determine the blade length, blade shape, and number of serrations that you see on CSI. Jeez, that just cracks me up!!! On CSI, they'll take a syringe filled with some kind of liquid plastic, inject it into the knife wound, wait for it to set up, remove it, and then analyze the mold to determine the length of the blade used and whether it was single-edged or double-edged.
Ah, if it were only so my job would be so much easier. At the risk of morphing this thread even further than it's already been morphed from the CCW topic, I'll answer the question on smell and then maybe get back to the. To be honest, the smell is something you accept as part of the job but never quite get used to regardless of how long you're around it. Actually, in my job I get the best of the best and the worst of the worst.
Unfortunately, I also get the badly decomposed bodies that the ME can do little with because of the extent of decomposition.
Frequently, we see folks come into the morgue to observe autopsies and put Vicks Vaporub beneath their nose. Now think about it. What's the purpose of Vaporub? To open the sinus passages and help breathing, right? If you're there to observe an autopsy of a decomposed person, is opening the sinuses really what you want to do?
The next question that will come up will probably be how do I get used to working around death? The long and short answer is that I just don't know. Sure, if I thought about it long enough I could envision someone on the autopsy table as someone's mother, father, brother, sister, or dear friend. I could wonder what this person was like in real life and whether I would have liked to have known them. But I never do. In some way I don't understand, I'm able to divorce myself from the personalization of it all and carry on in a clinical, detached manner that allows me to analyze the skeletal material to determine the biological profile, trauma, and, hopefully, identification.
I worked in Kosovo excavating mass graves and again for eight months in Bosnia doing the same thing. In Bosnia in particular, we often had mass graves that contained well over individuals, women and children included.
While excavating one mass grave I came across a Seiko watch that was nearly identical to one my wife gave me shortly after we were married and which I wore until a couple years ago. In a poor country like Bosnia, a Seiko watch would be considered a large investment and was probably given at a special occasion such as a wedding or birthday. Upon seeing this watch I'll have to admit that I nearly lost it and had to walk away for about 15 minutes until it was collected as evidence and was out of sight.
To this day I can still see the date and time on that watch. She's particularly sensitive to these kinds of things and would conjure up images of dead and mangled bodies in her dreams and during her work day.
When I was in Thailand last year identifying the tsunami dead I would call home and tell her, "Yes, I worked in the morgue today.
Sure is hot here but the beaches are beautiful and the guy at the motel bar makes a great margarita!
There's no middle of the road on what I do. You can either do it or you can't. For those of us who can, I don't think I've ever heard a good explanation of HOW we're able to deal with it when others can't. Forgive the departure from the CCW format, but that seems to be the nature of this thread.
Beyond my original post, I can't remember any post that's even remotely related to CCW, and now it seems we've even deviated well beyond the bullet, velocity, trauma theme.
If this is getting too far a field, let me know. Just got back from another three days in the garden spot of the world--the middle of a peanut patch in the middle of south Georgia so I haven't had a chance to catch up on the unanswered questions but will try to do so over the weekend if I'm lucky enough to not get called out of town. Apparently in my absence my avatar took a hike, offended no doubt, by the graphic descriptions of the autopsies. I'm searching all the previous haunts now.
No, I haven't forgotten about the. As for the Vicks, it was in use long before The Silence of the Lambs came out. As for funny decomp stories, here's one. We had just finished autopsying a floater in a very small morgue. The first scalpel cut into him cleared the autopsy room and we came back several minutes later, dressed in Tyvek suits over our street clothes. Following autopsy, we shucked the Tyveks and went to Mickey D's for lunch. After getting our lunches we took a table near the front counter and were followed shortly thereafter by two other guys who took seats at a table near ours.
Shortly after sitting down I noticed one of the guys wrinkling his nose and bending over looking under the table. He kept this up for a minute or so before walking to the front counter and asking for a manager. Being as close as we were, I couldn't help but overhear the conversation. As the manager walked back to the table with the customer I heard him say, "Man, I don't know if someone's thrown a dirty diaper under one of the tables of if something died in here, but this area STINKS!!!!!!!!!
Only then did it dawn on me that it was US! The Tyvek kept off the decomp fluids but did nothing to keep the stink off the clothes. Lesson learned. After that, it was scrubs. Desperado, So you live in Chickamauga? Great place and a beautiful part of the world!
And you'll also love Rome. My introduction to Chickamauga was in February I had just gotten back from eight months in Bosnia when I got called in from Knoxville to work the infamous Tri-State Crematory incident. The job fell to me because in addition to the remains that were found in the warehouse, in vaults, and in caskets in the back 40, there were numerous mass graves, and no one had ever worked one but me.
I worked Tri-State by day and spent the nights for the next two weeks in a motel in Chickamauga. Bill A, You've probably guessed my opinion of the. In short, I don't like it for self-defense. IMHO, it just doesn't have the oomph to do what a defensive round it supposed to do, and I lump it in the same class with the much-hated at least by me 9mm and. Actually, with the exception of the.
I like the. And think about it. Of all the countless articles you've undoubtedly read on which rounds and calibers to rely on for self-defense, have you ever seen one advocating the.
I'm reasonably sure I haven't. Now for the. Actually, I've seen two of them used, albeit in different ways. Many years ago when I was a cop I got a call of a suicide. It turns out that this guy had a extensive gun collection, one of which was a. For some reason that I don't remember, things had gotten bad and he decided to end it all with a bullet to the chest. Needless to say, the bullet went through him without slowing down, punched a hole in the ceiling, and blew a hole through the roof before achieving orbit around the earth.
On the other side of things, the recoil blasted the butt of the gun off the floor and punched the stock about halfway through his TV set. Elvis would have been proud. Both the entrance and exit wounds were remarkably small, but I didn't get to see the autopsy so I can't report on what it did to the innards. Also, while I was a cop there was a gun store, the name of which escapes me, that specialized only in high-dollar classic guns, such as L.
One night this gun store was burglarized, and the thieves got away with some really expensive guns. Several months later a local convenience store was robbed at gunpoint and the perpetrators were caught shortly thereafter.
As it turned out, the gun held on the proprietor was one of the guns taken in the burglary--a. There's no telling what the gun itself was worth before these candidates for MENSA sawed it off, but I can assure you it was worth far in excess of their take. As my favorite saying goes, "Against stupidity, the gods themselves fight unvictorious. Yes, I've seen the. Use it for targets; leave it for self-defense. Many thanks to those of you in this thread who have encouraged me to write a book.
In fact, I'm doing just that as time permits which, of late, hasn't been much due extensive travel associated with my job.
At the rate it's going we'll all be dead and gone before the first draft ever makes it to the publisher. My wife has been encouraging me to write a book for years. Her thinking is that because of my previous law enforcement background as well as the fact that I'm engaged in a job that very, very few people have, I owe it to law enforcement and the public to share my experiences.
But I've always put it off. Still, I'm doing a lot of lecturing throughout the country these days, both to law enforcement and the public at large, and because of the current infatuation with forensics and the uniqueness of my job, everywhere I go I'm asked when I'm going to publish.
I guess the time has come to take some of the PowerPoint presentations I give and begin to shape them into a book. Please forgive this interruption of the thread, but in addition to the encouragement I've received in this thread, I've also gotten e-mails from some of you asking the same thing and I just wanted to clear it up. I am asking here, in response to a question I read in the Reload Forum Would a. Or, is the result similar to the.
That's a good question, Hook, and not one I'm sure I can answer with certainty. First, muzzle velocity on both the. Since velocity quadruples kinetic energy, it goes as a tie. Bullet weight, however, is greater with the.
But there are other factors, namely whether it expends all its energy in the body or goes zipping through to expend it in some inanimate hopefully!
I'll have to confess that I've seen few instances of the. That means that much of the energy was lost because of overpenetration. This is where we want the energy to be lost, not digging a divot in the pavement or poking a hole in granny's mailbox.
And then there's the issue of controllability. In this case and with these two calibers, at least, I think the nod would go to the. Remember, at only fps, the temporary cavity is going to be quite small regardless of bullet size or design and the weight of the. In my opinion and as with all things I've voiced in this thread it's only that--an opinion I think the.
I can't tell you how many times I've read reports such as a 1-shot kill by a. What the reports don't tell you is that autopsy it was learned that the. Was this stroke of luck mentioned in the report?
Did it have anything to do with the bullet or caliber? Did the author draw the conclusion that the. Quite possibly. And this is where I think observations from the morgue are so important. As I've mentioned before, day in and day out I get to see what works and what doesn't and why. I've learned that multiple layers of winter clothing can slow the bullet to the point that a well-placed shot won't reach the vital organs it isn't Kevlar, folks, but it can be marvelously effective.
In the shooting reports you've read, is the season of the year ever mentioned? Rarely if ever. Only in the morgue can we see which bullets tend to skip off of bone and exit the body without causing significant damage and which break bone and plow into the vitals.
Only in the morgue can we see the effects of a 1-shot kill because it was placed in the central nervous system versus multiple shots to other organs. Let me assure you that there's a lot of poor information and mis-information out there, much of which is being used by the public to determine which calibers and rounds they'll carry for self-defense.
In fact, the Black Talon that ventilated our BG sniff is at least as dangerous to those doing the autopsy as it was to him because of the sharp projections on the jacket.
Is it effective? Absolutely, but it's not to the extent that it has been portrayed. Also, I occasionally hear the statement that a guy hit in the hand with a. I can assure you that this myth didn't start in the morgue, yet it seems to persist.
Sounds like a good project for the TV program Myth Busters. Because of my job I not only get to see what works but I also have to keep up with current literature regarding new bullets and calibers so that I'll recognize them at autopsy. I have to read books that talk about sectional density, fluid pressure, yield tests, and drag coefficient and their presumed effect on bullet performance and to you insomniacs out there, let me suggest that you read one of these books at bedtime.
Some of this stuff seems to make sense at autopsy, some is utter hogwash, and some I just don't know about. Even my Ph. Being the pragmatic sort that I am, just let me see what works and what doesn't and skip the physics needed to get there. And I get to do just that every day in my job.
They get the ones that are fresh and recently dead. I mainly get the skeletal remains and the ones that are so decomposed that the ME can't do much with them. The fresh ones are often IV drug users, crackheads, prostitutes, and gangbangers that often have hepatitis, HIV, TB, or some other variant of nasty cooties that have taken up residence in their bloodstream. A nicked finger through a nitrile glove while fishing for a Black Talon can present real problems for the pathologist. Contrary to what you frequently read or hear about in the news, there just isn't a whole lot of stuff you can catch from a decomposing body.
And, yes, Black Talons are exceedingly sharp and have to be recovered with caution. Problem is, that prior to autopsy we seldom have any idea of what bullet to expect, and often not even the caliber. Gangbangers are usually of the previously-mentioned "spray and pray" philosophy, meaning they want something like a 9mm or. OK - this may sound stupid and naive, but can't you use a metal detector to help locate fragments?
The problem isn't locating the bullet fragments because they show up easily on x-rays. The problem is trying to remove the darn things without butchering the all-important wound track. We try to remove fragments of the core and jacket whenever we can in order to preserve evidence for later prosecution, and sometimes the only way to find them is to probe the bullet track with the fingers, which can be a bit dangerous in the case of Black Talons.
DM2, thank you for taking the time to post your info on this thread. I have a question about the 9mm. This load is chronoed at fps. It isn't giving up much to the magnum. Have you seen any of these and if not how do you think they would do? Also, what about the Sig; it is basically the mag in an auto. Granted, velocity-wise it's pretty similar to the. But as I've said in many posts on this thread I just don't trust the 9mm for self-defense.
No, I haven't seen the. In the next two posts I'm going to bounce off a couple of things I've seen that can throw a wrench is this discussion of bullet types, calibers, and shot placement. One I've seen mentioned anecdotally from time to time in reports of shootings and the other I seldom if ever have. We've already talked about physiological factors required to end a fight.
Suffice it to say that the best of all worlds is a hit to the central nervous system. A hit to the brain or upper spinal column ends the fight then and there, be it from a bb gun or a. That's the good news. The bad news, as we've talked about earlier, is that these two areas are among the hardest to hit and aren't real high on the list of areas we should be aiming at to end a gunfight.
It's the chest area that should be our focus since it's loaded with high-value goodies that can end the fight quickly, if not immediately. But in addition to physiological factors, we've also got a psychological component to consider. That is, what's the state of mind of the assailant and how determined is he to continue the fight once the bullets start flying?
For you students of the Hatcher Formula, you'll know that this is not a new concept. I'll try to summarize Hatcher's thoughts here, taking a bit of poetic license from my own experience in the morgue. First, there's the assailant who, when the rounds start flying, suddenly remembers an appointment with his dentist to have a couple of root canals done. To quote Hatcher, he has "no stomach for the fight, or who has no expectation of trouble and is taken by surprise.
These are the BGs we all hope to encounter. The second group is pretty much what we've come to expect from this lengthy discussion. The gunfight starts, the adrenaline is pumping, and there's an ongoing assessment of the situation. If a wound is slight, the gunfight may continue. If it's significant, self-preservation usually takes over and the assailant seeks medical attention or at least breaks off the conflict in the hope of doing so.
This is pretty much the normal reaction. The third group is the assailant who is determined to kill you regardless of the consequences. Often they are enraged, drug-ridden, or simply mentally disturbed, and self-preservation takes a back seat to their all-important purpose of killing you. Cumulative, well-placed shots in the torso of these folks may well kill but not immediately, leaving them time to return fire. Group One I've never seen because they never make it to the autopsy table.
They live to fight another day or suddenly decide that going back to their mundane job is a bit safer than a life of crime. Group Three, although I don't see it a lot, really scares me.
Often these are people who, at least in their minds, have nothing to lose and are determined that the fight ends then and there and either they or their victim will die in the process. Many times multiple, well-placed hits, although not ineffective, do not prevent the attack from continuing well beyond what would have stopped a person from Group One or Group Two.
You'll notice that psychological factors are independent of caliber. The sound of a. Likewise, a significant wound from any caliber may cause Group Two to reassess the situation, and Group Three will likely continue the fight regardless of what the BG is being shot with.
I'll post the second part of this later and tie the two together with a third post at a later time. After the next post you'll probably see where I'm going with this and hopefully it will provide some food for thought.
That's the good thing about working in a morgue. The things I see from day to day give me pause for thought, not only about weapons but about tactics and equipment, which is where this is headed.
A deer doesn't know the difference between a. I don't think a person would notice the fps slower 9mm. Just my opinion and no flame disrespect intended. In theory I would agree with you; in reality I just don't know. Usually what we dig out is whatever was on sale at Wally World the day our BG decided to take some of his hard-earned drug money to buy some ammo, not what he decided to.
I always like to ask people about their expectations during a criminal attack. Do you expect to be attacked by 5' 4" LB 75 year old Mrs. Jones with her "attack umbrella"? Hey, stick that pellet gun in your belt and be on your way? Uh oh, did I bring the. Maybe its winter time and Louie is well dressed with a heavy leather jacket, a sweater, and a heavy flannel shirt. Now, whatta YOU want to be pack'n?
Shoot Louie with the same load and you've got one pissed off ex-con to deal with. Friends, I'm a big believer is safety margins and there isn't much of a bigger margin with a handgun than a gr. You pays yer money and you makes yer choices. Well, you're both right. All things considered I'd rather have a head shot regardless of caliber than a body shot with a hand cannon. But I, for one, just don't consider myself good enough to do it consistently so I'm directing my bullets toward the chest.
And Dusty Miller is exactly right. And for him I want the absolute biggest caliber and bullet I can control and fire effectively and quickly.
And there's no such thing as a margin of safety too large as long as I can handle it. Or it might not. As Dusty Miller says, the margin of safety is just way too small for comfort for me. If you can learn to shoot the 9mm effectively, how much harder would it be to learn to shoot the. Probably not much, and believe me they're both effective with any load. I can't say the same about the 9mm. By now you've probably figured out that I don't like the 9mm for self-defense with any bullet.
I'm a big fan of the. I'm not intentionally avoiding your questions but the answer to them will become clear after the next post or two if I can stay in town long enough to get it cranked out. This is getting ridiculous. Being shot 12 times in the chest with 9mm ammo and feeling "tired" is very interesting. Not knowing you are shot means is neural pain pathways are not working and he needs treatment because he probably has an auto-immune disorder.
The 45 is in no way vastly superior to the 9mm. Just look at the physics and biology of a man. Plus, the blood loss from 12 9mm holes would cause death in a matter of minutes. All I am saying is if the 9mm is so poor, the 45 is not going to be much better.
If you think it is so much better, what about it makes it so vastly superior to the 9mm? Let me say, that I have no love for the 9mm, I just think it is a good caliber and a disservice to people to mislead them into thinking the 9mm is weak or "for their wives. Your points are well taken, Patton21, and I agree with you to a point. But there's method in my madness and if you'll bear with me for a bit longer I'll try to explain but not try to convince you why I believe the.
You're absolutely right in believing there's no magic bullet and no magic caliber. As has been stated before, I'm not schooled in ballistics and I make no assumptions that require that I be.
I'm only stating what I've seen in the morgue, which I consider to be the finest university of self-defense. I'm far from an expert in ballistics, but having been a cop for seven years, a hunter and avid handgunner for half a century, and having seen thousands of autopsies gives me a unique perspective. I'm only stating what I've seen, not what I've read about. Bear with me a bit longer, follow the posts, and make your own decisions at the end of it all.
Ok, if you think the psychological factor threw a wrench into the equation think about this one. You've just put three well-placed shots in the chest of some thug who was trying to do the same thing to you--and he stays in the fray! What happened to these well-placed shots that were supposed to end the fight?
Enter the luck factor. Even though our goodie-packed thoracic area is what we should be aiming at, there's no guarantee that the vital organs contained therein will be hit.
Hence, the luck factor. Believe it or not, there's a fair amount of dead space uh, let me rephrase that, non-vital space in the chest that will allow a bullet to penetrate and exit without striking something vital. Where I'm going with this should be obvious by now, particularly after the posts on the psychological factor and now the luck factor.
Ok, you've just been attacked by some thug who's high on meth, needs your money for another fix, has just gotten out of prison and is determined not to go back. He stands 6'8" tall, weighs pounds and it's pure muscle. You've just put three rounds into his chest to no effect and three others have missed. He's still coming, madder than ever. You do have your speedloaders with you, don't you?
Or, if it's a semi-auto, please tell me you always carry a spare magazine! Surely you wouldn't go out with only the ammo that's in the weapon! Or would you? Interesting thread. I am not sure I agree with some of the conclusions though, and based upon my own experiences and research I tend to believe that a good 9mm is about the same as a good.
But I am always open to learning. The "which is best" discussions seem to largely ignore issues such as gun weight, size, recoil, barrel length, bullet choice, shot placement, etc. I also can't help but wonder about anecdotal stories when the stories seem to defy common sense. A gr 9mm bullet traveling at about the same velocity as a gr. I understand that there is a difference between "stopping" someone and killing them, but this whole thread is about dead folks, not "stopped" folks.
Or are a lot less people shot with the. If so, what does that say about the validity of the conclusions? I have first hand knowledge of a triple homicide in which the victims were each shot once with a.
Do I carry a. Why does DM2 say the 9mm is a bad choice? I can't discern the reason from the data. Is it that when they come in they are accompanied by another dead guy, whom they shot after first being hit? If it is just the fact that the deceased often have multiple injuries, does that mean the first round failed? Does it mean the first round didn't work? Or does it mean these calibers allow follow-up shots that are harder to accomplish with larger calibers? Or does it mean they were killed by some whacko who just kept shooting?
Are the multiple shots well-placed? What are the comparisons? If you have, say, three times as many 9mm shootings as. What are the statistics? If you have 40 shootings with a. What ammo did they use? Where were the rounds placed?
Just guessing here that if you randomly looked at shootings with a 9mm and shootings with a. Does this factor in?
If I remember correctly, Atlanta P. How many of their shootings factor into this? One would assume they are using top-rated ammo and have a better record of well-placed shots.
What is wrong with the 9mm? Is it lack of penetration or lack of expansion, or what? Do the victims just not respect it and suffer less?
I don't think there is much value in factoring suicides into this. Same with an execution-style shooting. I'm not saying DM2 is wrong, and I am not questioning his honesty or good intentions, just wondering about the data. I have no quibble with his caliber choice but I gather some people are thinking of switching calibers or ammo based on this thread.
Fine, but does the data back up the conclusions? I have heard the stories over the years about people being shot 10, 20, 30 times with a 9mm and barely noticing. Frankly, I don't buy these stories. I got shot by a. I also have first-hand experience with people getting shot with.
Interesting, but probably meaningless, although i don't have much faith in wadcutteres now. I would love to see some of the statistics or other data from DM2 on bullets, wound locations, etc. Bottom line is this: I respect your conclusions, your background and your experience. Just saying "I'm a cop Telling me how calibers and bullets work when they hit bone, muscle, intermediate barriers, etc. No offense I continue to disagree.
NO handgun round is a miracle weapon. IF any weapon gets that misnomer is would be a high powered rifle. I don't understand this "myth" that the 45 is the "Holy Grail" of handguns; that if you are not using a 45 acp you are under-gunned.
Isn't the first rule to be armed anyway? What about shot placement? Not that they don't exist, just that I don't think the chances of running into 6'8" pound Bubba are high. Right, Chris. In the Glock annual this year they had the story of a policeman who went against some home invaders with her Glock 21, a.
She hit one BG in the head and he stayed in the fight. She hit another I forget where several times, he too stayed in the fight. She was shot three times. One of the BG's died later I believe.
She and the other BG survived, and she's back to work. As to shot placement, a lot of people use that term. As you no doubt know in a real gun fight, often, you're lucky to get a hit, much less a 'shot placed' where you want it. A lot of stopping the threat, I think, is luck and having lots of ammo.
I don't have any statistics. It's a good one. On the subject of 9mm's. We had an officer a while back who was shot by his partner's gun when the BG took it. The officer was a big guy. He was shot in the upper left chest, and while it didn't kill him, it clearly took him out of the fight. The BG was taken out of the fight, and quickly died, with two shots of the same ammo, also from a Glock 17 or I don't want to contradict true experts, but just throw this into the mix.
I'd have to say, carry the largest caliber you will carry and can handle, is probably a good rule of thumb. Every little edge helps at a time like this. If you're like I am, you read discussions like these, you want to run out and buy a. And I think that's fine. Get as good as you can with what you can handle and afford. Also because I believe a heavy slow moving bullet like a. Have your buddy poke you in the ass with a sewing needle, then have him drive a 10 penny nail into ya, see which wound is sorest for the longest.
Lol, no one will ever accuse me of being scientific. Neither will anyone ever convince me lighter and faster is always better. My coworker was confronted by an armed robber and tossed his wallet over as demanded, hitting the robber in the chest. The LEO drew his issued 9mm as the robber picked up the wallet.
The first two went in the dirt. Six went into the upper legs and groin, removing or damaging the testicles. Surgeons may have finished up later. By this time I suspect the BG had a huge adrenaline dump.
At least two were near the heart. This had been a close in gun fight in which both parties moved as the range increased. The LEO suffered a grazing wound described as a burn by a passing bullet. COM for you. Of course, you're always in control. Military Uniform Porn Videos Newest - videos. All HD. Annice4Sex 4. Messine 6. UploadYourPorn views 25 min.
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By Snejana Farberov. As one of 29 death investigators for the Clark County Coroner's Officer in Las Vegas, Nevada, Rick Jones is charged with determining the cause of death, which requires examining the victims' remains as well as their homes in search of clues. Like his colleagues, Jones arrives at crimes scenes along with police, checks the body for trauma and carefully photographs everything, from blood spatter to the position of the victim on the floor.
Grave task: Forensic assistant Lindsay Hanes cleans the hands of a decedent, prepping to take fingerprints upon its arrival at the Clark County Office of the Coroner in Las Vegas. Helping hand: Coroner investigator Richard Jones removes jewelry from a body, which will be given to the next of kin.
Over the past decade, deaths have risen in the county by 25 per cent, but the number of Coroner's Office investigations has dipped slightly - a change that Coroner Michael Murphy attributes to better communication between his office and physicians.
The Las Vegas Coroner's Office on Pinto Lane is housed in a remodeled church featuring a stain-glass window set into a wall. The building is divided into cubicles for investigators, offices for medical examiners and chilled rooms for bodies. Grim sight: The bodies are laid on on gurneys and covered with plastic sheets, while their organs are stored in clear bags.
Suited up: Investigator Rudy Miller puts on gloves to prepare for his examination of a corpse, left, before photographing the scene in search of clues. Femmes fatale: Lara Davies is one of 20 women working at the coroner's office along with nine male colleagues. In the first moderately chilly room, six corpses covered with blue plastic sheets lie on gurneys awaiting further examination or a transfer to the mortuary. Under the sheets, the organs of the deceased, including intestines, liver and heart, are stored in clear plastic bags.
Severely decomposed bodies of people who may not have been found for weeks after their demise are stored in a much colder space, but even the bone-chilling temperature is no match to an odor of decay so potent that to feels like a physical presence. Family members who come to identify a loved one sometimes hug the body, begging a parent or sibling to wake up, whispering in their ear or yelling at them.
Many express regret that they never took the time to tell the deceased how much they were loved while they were still alive. For investigators, being present during these intimate moments of grief can feel like a violation or privacy. Bitter pill: Investigators take away all the prescription drugs they find on the scene to help them determine the cause of death. Spitting image: 3D renderings of police sketches are used to identify the dead inside the Clark County Office of the Coroner.
Heartbreaking: Murphy gets emotional inside his office while recalling the case involving Crystal Figueroa, the three-year-old who was found beaten to death in a dumpster in Las Vegas in Many of the investigators say the work has changed them for the better, teaching them to live their lives to the fullest, spend as much time with their spouses and children as possible and seize every chance to tell them how much they love them.
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